Thinking of coming to Canada to do an MA in Economics?

Every year, thousands of international students apply to Canadian MA programs in Economics. Studying abroad represents an investment of tens of thousands of dollars. Yet, without knowledge of Canadian customs and institutions, how can a student make the best of that investment?

Here are some common questions international students ask (and some students don't ask - but should), and my honest attempt to give you the best answer I can.

Where is the best place to study economics in Canada?

There is no single best place to study economics in Canada. Every student is different. The university that is a good choice for one person may not be a good choice for another. It's a matching game - finding the university that is right for you. A student with a B+ average from a mid-ranked Chinese university has little chance of getting admitted to one of the top ranked Canadian universities - and would be unlikely to succeed even if he was admitted.

Going to a smaller university, getting used to the Canadian way of life, and working on English language skills can be a smart decision. For example, successful Chinese-Canadian economist Professor Zhihao Yu did his Masters degree in Economics at the University of New Brunswick. Once he had proven that he could succeed in Canada, he was able to get financial support to do his PhD at UBC.

But if you want to go to the "top" Canadian school, here some rankings of Canadian economics departments: 

• James Davies, Martin Kocher and Matthias Sutter provide a ranking, based on 1994-2000 publications in academic journals. They rank University of Toronto top, followed by University of British Columbia. Their ranking is available here.
• Macleans magazine provides rankings of Canadian universities here. The Globe and Mail provides reports on Canadian universities at this website. These are rankings of the university overall, not of economics departments. For a masters degree, it's generally best to avoid the "primarily undergraduate" universities, unless your main goal is to improve your English and learn about life in Canada.
• The Times Higher Educational Supplement provides worldwide university rankings. Again, these are for the university as a whole, not for economics departments
• The Repec Ideas web site gives a ranking of economics departments in Canada here. This ranking is more recent than the Davies et al ranking.

Except for the Macleans and Globe and Mail ones, these rankings are based primarily on the universities' research output. They say little about the quality of teaching, the quality of the student experience, or the quality of life in the local community.

There are some rankings of Canadian universities available on Chinese-language web sites, like this one: http://www.douban.com/note/238802915/. This listing is put together by an agency. These agencies find it easiest to place students in the smaller institutions, like Brock - and so tell their clients that Brock is a top Canadian university. Why not? By the time the student finds out the truth, she'll be thousands of miles away.

This raises another question...

Should I use an agency?

Negotiating the process of applying for a visa in Canada can be intimidating, so I can understand why people use agencies. But be careful, there are ones who will take your money and provide you with nothing of value. Immigration Canada warns people: "When immigrating to Canada, you don’t have to use an immigration representative to represent you."

For students, all the forms and information that you need to apply for a Canadian visa are available for free here. Every university has application forms available for free on its web site too. There is a list of Canadian economics departments, with links to the department websites, at the Canadian Economics Association website here. Application forms can usually be found by clicking the link for "prospective students" or "graduate students", and then "how to apply" or "application information."

Before you turn to an agency, do your own research, and find out as much as you can about studying in Canada. You can do this on your own, without an agency.

What will I learn in an MA in Economics?

Students don't ask this question as often as they should. In an MA in Economics, you will learn nothing about accounting or running a business. You will be required to take course in microeconomic theory, macroeconomic theory, and econometrics.

The courses are typically very mathematical. Here are the textbooks that have been used recently for micro, macro and econometrics at Carleton. Looking at them on-line can give some idea of the topics covered and level of difficulty of graduate economics courses. A strong undergraduate background in mathematics or a similar discipline is very helpful. If you don't enjoy mathematics, or if you find it difficult, there is not much point in doing an MA in Economics at most Canadian universities.

You can find out more by checking out individual department web sites (listed here). Every department will have a web site that lists its professors, its courses, and its program requirements, and will have course outlines on line. Just search for, say "economics Carleton University" and you will find the page.

What should I put in my statement of interest? 

For many years, I have been on the committee that decides whether or not students will be accepted into Carleton's MA program. I have read hundreds and hundreds of statements of interest. Some tips:

• I don't care about your family history. I don't care about your father, or your mother, or your childhood. I especially don't care about the sacrifices your family made for your education. There is one exception: it is worth mentioning any family in Canada. They are likely to support you, and increase your chance of success. Saying "I would like to come to Carleton because I have family in Ottawa" is perfectly legitimate.
• Don't mention how much you like Keynes (unless you have actually read Keynes, and you genuinely do like and admire his work). You're not going to read Keynes' General Theory in an most MA Economics programs in Canada. If you say something like "I want to learn more about Keynes and that's why I'm applying to ______ University" it shows that you probably haven't done your research.  [Updated]
• Provide concrete information about your skills and knowledge. What did you learn in econometrics? Micro theory? Macro theory? Who taught you? Where did they learn economics?
• Tailor the statement of interest to the university that you are applying to. For example, if you plan to apply to McMaster, say something like "I want to study at McMaster because it has a strong group of labour and public economists and I'm interested in labour economics and public policy." For UBC or U of T, say: "I want to go to UBC/U of T because it's the top ranked economics department in Canada". For Dalhousie: "I want to  go to Dalhousie because I want quality instruction in a beautiful part of Canada, and because it has a unique program in development economics." 

Whatever you say in your statement of interest, it should be true. Remember that it's a matching process - you want to end up in the university that's right for you. 

A good statement of interest involves doing some research - going to each university's web site, checking out individual faculty members' web sites, looking at the graduate program requirements, checking out course outlines. But this is tens of thousands of dollars and a year or more of your life - it's worth while doing some research.

Where can I find out more information?

Always try to find official sources for information. 

• For information about visas, entering Canada, and Canadian embassies abroad, look for official government of Canada web sites. Their email addresses always end with "gc.ca". So "http://www.studyincanada.com/" is not an official government site. The study in Canada web site http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/study/index.asp is an official Canadian government site, because it has that gc.ca in the address. (For the US, urls ending in "gov" are official government web sites.)
• An increasing number of universities are holding information seminars in Taiwan and China to recruit good students. There are international recruitment fairs in major cities across Asia, where students can meet representatives from North American universities. These are good opportunities for students to obtain information and introduce themselves to university recruiters.
• General information about studying in Canada can be found through the Association of University and Colleges of Canada website here. This information is available in a variety of languages, including Chinese.
• Always try to ask for a second opinion from trustworthy sources. 

Do not write to individual professors at Canadian universities (except perhaps the graduate supervisor) asking for information and assistance. They are not in a position to assist you, and do not like to be asked to provide something that it is not in their power to give. At best, a professor will tell you to go and read the "how to apply" information on the department web site. Most likely they will just ignore your message. 

Some students may not be confident about finding and reading English information on-line. However, if you want to study abroad, it is best to get used to searching for information in English as soon as possible. After all, if you can't navigate a university web site, will you be able to navigate life in Canada? (Thanks to Loretta Fung for these suggestions).

 There are probably dozens of other frequently asked questions and helpful tips I could give, but I'll end now and let people ask questions, or give their thoughts, in the comments below.

Update: Nick Rowe mentioned below that students often have questions about financial support. The amount of financial support varies from university to university. Graduate administrators can sometimes answer specific questions such as "what percentage of the international students who applied to your university last year were admitted with financial support?" "what is the average level of financial support awarded to international students in your program?"

One warning: living in Canada costs more than you might think. Rent is the biggest cost, but things like mobile phones are shockingly expensive ($25 a month for a minimal acceptable plan from Mobilicity - but you can easily pay $50 or $60 a month). Textbooks are also very expensive - you can save yourself hundreds of dollars by finding out the ones you need ahead of time and buying them overseas. Warm clothes and/or rain gear costs money. 

Comments

[david]

I'm a little curious - I've been told, many times, that many undergraduates (even those majoring in Economics!) graduate with only a dim idea of what economics at a higher level is 'like'. This didn't prove true in my experience, although I grant that I was warned and loaded up on as much math as I could take.

Do you get hordes and hordes of economics hopefuls who have clearly no idea what Master's or god forbid Doctoral Econ is like? Keynes-type literary enthusiasm could easily emerge from a should-have-majored-in-politics student, for instance. I hear they are more scholastic in those parts.

[Kevin Milligan]

Thanks for this Frances. I agree with most of it--if not all.

I seem to get one or two emails a week from students who want me to 'sponsor' them into our graduate program. Perhaps that is how it works in other parts of the world, but in Canada or the US you apply through the regular university application procedure. I have no power over the decision unless I'm on the graduate admissions committee.

I don't think I'm unique in this--I suspect these students are spamming everyone.

[Sina Motamedi]

Why all the Keynes hate?

I'm here to show some Keynes love.

[david]

No need to hate Keynes to reject scholasticism.

[nemi]

"A strong undergraduate background in mathematics or a similar discipline is very helpful."

Is that really needed? Don´t you have any "math for economist" course in your MA - and if you don´t, isn’t it enough to read e.g. Chiangs "Fundamental Methods of Mathematical Economics" (which you should master in a few weeks unless you forgotten all high school math)?

I certainly think it is enough for the micro book you are referring to, but I haven’t read the macro and econometrics book.

[nemi]

PS: Concerning:
"What will I learn in an MA in Economics?
Students don't ask this question as often as they should."

Does economist ask this question as often as they should? The only evaluations I have seen haven’t presented a very bright picture.

[Frances Woolley]

nemi: "Is that really needed"

In my experience enjoying math is highly correlated with enjoying graduate studies in economics. There is a math prep course in our MA program, but students who come in with a strong math background have an enormous advantage over those who don't.

There are many alternatives to taking an MA in economics. Someone who doesn't enjoy math would have a much more enjoyable experience, and much greater probability of success both during their degree and afterwards, taking a masters in public policy, public administration or international affairs.

Sina: "Why all the Keynes hate?"

A student who applies to a MA program in Economics because they want to read Keynes clearly has not done their background research. For example, I could only find two courses on the entire Carleton Economics department web site that even mention Keynes (doing a google search for Keynes site:www.carleton.ca/economics). A student who hopes to learn about Keynes in an MA program at Carleton or most other Canadian Universities (U of O excepted) will be sadly disappointed. That's I don't like to see it personal statements.

I don't hate students' families either. It's just that this information is not relevant to the admission decision. (Though a colleague and I used to joke that the best thing a student could say about his/her family is "my father is a very rich and corrupt party official" because that way at least we'd know the student had the money to pay their tuition fees and support themselves).

nemi "Does economist ask this question as often as they should?" No.

[Frances Woolley]

david: "Do you get hordes and hordes of economics hopefuls who have clearly no idea what Master's or god forbid Doctoral Econ is like?"

I don't know exactly how many, because the students who have no idea of what a Master's program is like are probably also the ones who don't speak great English, and aren't hanging about in my office gossiping. But I do sense that economics in places like China, India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh (some of our main international student source countries) is less theory driven, more applied, and much more like business school education than in Canada, and our programs are less hands on and applied than international (or for that matter many domestic) students would like. I don't know though really.

Kevin - no, you're not unique, I get those too.

[Nick Rowe]

Money: My information is too out of date to answer this very well, but I would guess a lot of prospective students would like to know something about financial support: Teaching assistantships and scholarships. What is the probability of getting money, how much, and what work do you have to do for it?

Course-work vs thesis: I think that most Canadian economics MA programs are mostly coursework, and that this is different from many other countries.

MA vs PhD: In the US, students go from BA to the PhD program, right?. An MA is a consolation prize they give you if you drop out of the PhD after a year or two, right? In Canada the MA is a real degree. You go from BA to MA, then some students continue on to the PhD.

On the Keynes thing: in most/all MA programs, you will learn Keynesian ideas, as currently understood. But we don't call that "learning Keynes", because we don't usually bother tracing back the history of where all the ideas came from (except in history of thought courses). We don't spend much time on who put what ingredients into the pot. You will also learn Friedman's ideas, but you won't be "learning Friedman".

[Frances Woolley]

Nick, I've added something about money, and modified the bit about Keynes a little.

[Frances Woolley]

On the Keynes thing - there are a bunch of statements of interest/personal statements in circulation on the internet/used by agencies. I can infer their contents, to some extent, by what I see in the application files. I have no problem with people who've *read* Keynes, my concern is with people who cut-and-paste stuff about Keynes from a statement of interest that they've found on line.

[difei]

What about Canadian students who wants to study overseas? Lets say UK? Any advice? I noticed you did your PhD at LSE, how did you feel it faired compared to the Canadian economic curriculum? More theory based?

[Frances Woolley]

Difei - studying the UK was a wonderful experience, particularly because I had an amazing PhD supervisor (Tony Atkinson). There is less course work in Europe than in Canada. Funding is harder to come by. Unless you are at a really top European university with an internationally known supervisor, it can be hard to break into the North American job market afterwards.

Basically, I wouldn't recommend studying in the UK unless you have substantial financial support from your parents and are a really top - A to A+ average - student. An MSc in Economics from the LSE will cost 21 thousand pounds *in tuition alone*, that's before you even take into account the cost of living in London. A student has to have an extremely high level of innate ability before that level of human capital investment will pay for itself. The less expensive universities, and the ones that will offer funding, don't have much credential value in the Canadian job market.

[JoeMac]

Nick,

I am actually planning on getting an MA in econ and applying to Canadian programs. My plan is to study math through Multivariate Calculus and linear algebra. My understanding is that's all you need for MA, but for PHD they like Real Analysis.

Could you guys talk about what students do if they don't plan on getting a PHD? I have done some research and the general trend is that 1/3 go to PHD research, 1/3 go to public/non-profit institutions, and 1/3 to private industry.

[Kelvin]

One thing to consider is whether the school has a PhD stream. At Toronto, the MA program is split into a regular and a PhD stream, where PhD stream students take the PhD first-year level micro/macro/metrics by default. There are advantages if you think you'll be in academia for sure, but I'm not sure about the transferability of those credits to other schools.

More importantly, the department puts much more funding and aid to the PhD stream students. Going to Toronto for PhD stream would've been comparable to UBC for me, but regular MA would've been much more expensive.

I ended up going to my undergrad alma mater (UBC), as opposed to Toronto, in part because I didn't feel that their MA program would've pigeonholed me into a PhD later on while being strong enough to prepare for one if that's what I wanted (which, it turns out, wasn't).

[Frances Woolley]

JoeMac, I'll see if I can run some stats with the National Graduate Survey or the Census at some point.

One thing to remember - there's a lot of back and forth between private industry and government - historically Bay Street has recruited from the Department of Finance, so the best way to get a top private sector job is to start out at Finance or the Bank of Canada (see, e.g. Don Drummond).

Another thing - the past is not necessarily a good guide to the present. As the % of students going onto MAs explodes, the career paths MA students follow will change also.

[Frances Woolley]

Kelvin - do you have any other thoughts/advice/insights you can share? It's really valuable to hear a recent student's perspective on this.

[JoeMac]

Frances,

Do you know what sort of jobs "economists" have in the private finance industry. I am assuming some sort of analyst.

[Frances Woolley]

JoeMac - I really don't know, these private sector types hang out at the Canadian Association of Business Economists https://www.cabe.ca/jmv2/index.php. If you search their job listing and their consultants directory it gives you some idea of what private sector economists do.

[Jim Sentance]

Helpful post Frances, I've circulated it to all our majors, who I guess technically aren't applying from overseas, but who mainly have arrived here from their fairly recently. I'm sure they'll find it edifying.

[Determinant]

One thing to remember - there's a lot of back and forth between private industry and government - historically Bay Street has recruited from the Department of Finance, so the best way to get a top private sector job is to start out at Finance or the Bank of Canada (see, e.g. Don Drummond).

I have pursued various posts in the federal Public Service. If you wish to pursue a position in a federal Department, do yourself a big favour: learn French. I repeat, LEARN FRENCH!!!

No, it's not that hard. Ottawa is the centre of the universe for French as a Second Language instruction for English-speakers. There is a plethora of FSL academies in Ottawa. The Canada School of the Public Service, next door to the Mint publishes a curriculum and drill sets for instructors to follow.

When applying for any position of interest to anyone educated in the Public Service, BBB (medium level, A = low, C = high; reading/writing/speaking) is par for the course for any federal job ad. If it isn't required, it is usually an asset. If you show up with FSL training, it really helps, it is one of the easiest elimination criteria to use. Plus in all Federal job apps, you must prove your claims.

The Treasury Board has a policy that all positions in the National Capital Region are BBB by default. So if you wish to work at Finance, learn French.

If you wish to practice, there is lapresse.ca (free) and tou.tv, the official and fully legal download website for Radio-Canada. It's your public broadcaster, you paid for it.

Learning French and proving it with results in hand is more impressive than showing up in a suit and tie, in fact you might not get the chance to use that suit and tie if you don't make the effort in French.

To be totally clear, this a pro-French post.

[Jacques René Giguère]

ANd if you want to learn french, you can also go to telequebec.tv, also fully legal.
To La Presse ,add The Gazette. You all know what I think of them but they cover the same subject as LA Presse at the same language level. Another way of cross checking is to listen the the news on CBC-Newsworld and Radio-Canada-RDI. Onmce againi, similar subjects at the same level of subject depth and language level.

And to complicate matters, in Québec, both in English and French universities, BA is a real diploma, as the introduction and general culture courses are dealt with at the CEGEP level. Always better to go further, but with a BA, you are a professionnal, if somewhat minor, economist.

[honeyoak]

JoeMac, Frances - Most private sector economists do not practice economics as there is little profit in optimizing utility curves. You can find them anywhere and everywhere. Economists do tend to cluster around the corporate functions of finance, operations, and strategy.

[Determinant]

On the value of preparation, the Public Service Commission runs the Second Language Evaluation tests for the Public Service as a whole. The Reading Test is easy, a little study will get you a B. The Writing Test, however, is a known Anglo-trap; they put known Anglicisms in there and other tricks known to trap, confuse or defeat Anglophones. You really need to prepare with a school for that one, money well spent. The Oral Interaction test, which I have never taken, is also one you need to prepare for professionally. Casual French won't cut it. I've seem prep materials for it.

If you live in a Really English part of Canada (i.e. not Quebec, Ottawa or New Brunswick), your spoken French skills are likely not good enough right now and you don't have anyone to practice with. You need professional preparation. Luckily there is a market full of service providers willing to serve you.

After taking my own advice, I get the kick of following Quebec politics in French. I've seem some howlers in La Presse to match what Jacques has seen in the Gazette. Or seeing the MP for my Really English Riding get mentioned in La Presse for a minor scandal he was involved in.

[Frances Woolley]

Jacques Rene - Then there's the one site that's vital for truly understanding Quebec language and culture: tetesaclaque http://www.tetesaclaques.tv/collection/par_vues,/a>.

[Jacques René Giguère]

Determinant: that's why I recommend to my students ( both french and english) wishing to be bilingual in the two languages to read both these newspapers, if only for the linguistic experience and the entertainment value, as life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think. They fit well together. As my granma would say: "Chaque guenille trouve son torchon". (Each old towel find its own rag...).

Note to foreigners: In Canada,usually being bilingual does not mean speaking two languages. It means speaking english and french,hence the expression "bilingual in both (official) languages. If you speak english and mandarin, you speak two languages, not THE two languages. It seems that Montréal is the city in North America with the most trilingual peoples ,as immigrants learn both french and english while keeping their native tongue. And of course, most people manage both F&E on a daily basis. Though Salt LAke City is highly language -proficient, as the Mormons return from their missionary work.

Anyone who enjoy tetesaclaques is my kind of people.
Canada is a very weird country.

[Jiahuan]

I am always confused and some students may also confused about the course-based and thesis-based program. Is that just simply explained as a thesis based program is prepared for further education like pursuing for a PhD degree and course-based is prepared for the following career?

[Frances Woolley]

Jiahuan -

Great to see you on the blog!

Back in the day - 20, 30, 40 years ago - a lot of masters programs (the majority?) required a masters thesis or a masters essay. For example, when I did my MA at Queen's, every student had to write an essay or a thesis. That's just the way it was.

These essays and theses were a lot of work for everybody - students, faculty - and meant that students took a lot longer to finish their degrees.

So, over the past 20 or 30 years, many if not most masters programs have eliminated their essay requirements. I think University of Ottawa has one, and I think Universite Laval does too. I don't remember how many others *require* students to write an essay or thesis, as opposed to having it as an option.

It's not true that a thesis based program is generally considered to be better preparation for doing a PhD and a course-based program is better preparation for a career. Often employers place a lot of value on students being able to write an essay. I don't think - though others may disagree - that having written a masters essay or thesis is an advantage when you're applying to a PhD program. The PhD admission committee will look primarily at grades in the MA program and letters of reference.

[Determinant]

Determinant: that's why I recommend to my students ( both french and english) wishing to be bilingual in the two languages to read both these newspapers, if only for the linguistic experience and the entertainment value, as life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think. They fit well together. As my granma would say: "Chaque guenille trouve son torchon". (Each old towel find its own rag...).

That's what I always think. On our best days, we bring out the best in each other. On the plus side, I see Sophie Cousineau has started to publish English-language articles in the Globe; she is a regular La Presse contributor. Chantal Hebert is the mainstay Francophone who publishes in the English-language media. Times must be getting a bit tough for Mme. Cousineau to be looking for work in English newspapers.

Canada is a very weird country.

Canada is a country that is impossible in theory but in practice works quite well. Just don't look at the theory, it's a dog's breakfast. Our guiding motto has been to never let the perfect stand in the way of the workable.

[Jacques René Giguère]

Since this thread seems to be about how to adapt to CDN universities and cultures: Cousineau is good in part because she restrict herself to business coverage, a totally different remit from economics. Times are not hard at La Presse. Unlike the rest of Nort America, the print press is still vialble in QC. La Presse is not a big moneymaker but sales are holding up. Having a column is more of an exchange of favors between leading media. Lysianne Gagnon long had a column in the G&M and some anglo commentators had space in La Presse.
Jay Brian, at The Gazette has the good sense of consulting wiser people (such as Stephen) before writing. Reguly at the G&M usually refrain from pontificating about things he know nothing about. One can learn things from those people. On the other hand, I know no one who caan write cogently about economics. They are pundits in the worst sense of the word, like those who, despite all the data, were stil predicting a close race between Obama and Romney.

Canada has always worked better when the humble practitionners were in charge. Notably , the three greatest prime ministers (Mackenzie King,St-Laurent and Pearson), to whom we owe one of the best managed, decent country available. And it is ,in the end, ungovernable when it is left in the hands of visionnary thinkers like Trudeau who mucked up the efficient compromises worked by his predecessors.