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I hope lots of people read this, Nick, it's such a clear explanation of the issues involved.

You wrote: "If you think that benefits to the elderly should maintain some given ratio between people's income when working and their income when they retire, then you are implicitly making my assumption."

Generally speaking, the literature on retirement talks about "replacement rates", i.e. an adequate pension income is one that replaces, say, 50% or 75% of pre-retirement income. So I'd say most often people thinking about retirement are making your assumption.

Thanks Frances! I was worried that I hadn't explained it clearly enough. (I just now edited it to stick in a sentence about the "replacement rate".)

In my random reading on OAS, I came on a good survey paper by Ken Battle. Ken had a concept "social policy by stealth" (something like that). He was talking about slowly abolishing things by not indexing them to inflation. I felt this was a bit like that, even if it's not exactly the same.

Now, you could make a case that OAS is too generous. And that it is better to cut OAS than to delay it till 67. And you might say it's better to cut it slowly, or just not increase it as productivity increases, so as to make the transition easier for people who have already made their plans. OK. But it does look a bit stealthy, if that's not what people had in mind.

Thanks Nick, that's really interesting.

Canadian spending on the elderly looks very low compared to the UK.

E.g. In the UK spending on old age pensions has increased from 4.6% of GDP in 2007, to 5.7% of GDP in 2012.

This definition excludes a number of benefits given to the elderly.

In Canada are there lobbying organisations for increasing welfare payments to the elderly?

Are you concerned that as the median voter ages, politicians will find it increasingly difficult to resist bribing retirees with increases in unfunded state retirement benefits?

For example, in the last election in the UK, a big part of the Lid Dems, (normally a minor party) election pitch was to increase the rate of uprating of the universal basic state pension. Politically, it was a pretty successful policy.

Similarly, in the recent election in Spain, despite all their problems, the conservative victor, Rajoy, promised to reinstate the indexing of state pensions. I believe state pensions consume an even larger share of Spain's government revenues than in the UK.

Brit: I'm really not sure how the Canadian pension system compares to other countries, like the UK.

This Report is just about Old Age Security, which is for everyone 65 and over (it's taxable income).

there's also Guaranteed Income Supplement (an income tested form of welfare for old people)

And the Canada Pension Plan, which you have to pay into while working.

"In Canada are there lobbying organisations for increasing welfare payments to the elderly?

Are you concerned that as the median voter ages, politicians will find it increasingly difficult to resist bribing retirees with increases in unfunded state retirement benefits?"

Yes and yes.

Two points. First, I think most people - who aren't economists - have been going along on the assumption that the OAS will mostly be kept up with inflation. I think that's what most people understand as what we're doing now.

Second, when you start talking about GDP per worker, I think you do have to consider that I think we expect that as the labour force shrinks in relative terms, we expect GDP per worker to rise, not just relative to GDP per capita, but relative to what the norm for GDP per worker is now.

Is that a reasonable expectation? It seems like a falling labour participation rate ought to drive higher productivity growth.

You're still chasing phantoms. There is no *automatic* increase linked to GDP, either per capita or per worker. OAS only goes up in real terms if legislation is passed to raise it.

You're basically arguing that we should cut OAS because...future politicians might raise it. Illogical.

And not even borne out by past actions. Take a look at http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/isp/statistics/cppstatbook/statbook2011.shtml#t4. Load it into a spreadsheet. Divide the benefits by the number of recipients and you have the annual benefit since 1980. Calculate each year's percentage increase. The numbers almost perfectly track inflation in Canada.

In other words, politicians haven't given OAS a real increase since at least 1980. Why would they start now, in the face of the baby boom?

No OAS crisis. Nothing to see here. These are not the droids you're looking for.

Tyronen: "You're basically arguing that we should cut OAS because...future politicians might raise it. Illogical. ... why would they start now, in the face of the baby boom"

It's not as illogical as you might suggest. Think about the demographics. In 2030 1 in 3 eligible voters will be over 65 (and, once you factor in actual voting patterns, it'll probably be darn close to 50% of actual voters). That's a pretty hefty pressure group to push for increasing OAS/GIS. Why would politicians start increasing OAS in the face of the baby boom, the question answers itself, because the baby boom will be the most powerful interest group in Canada.

Push back the retirement age and you start cutting into the size of that group. Push back actual benefits, then at least the starting point for future increases will be lower.

And note, even if OAS were merely indexed to inflation, the PBO still estimates that Canada's finances as a whole are still unsustainable as a result of rising health care costs.


I will just have to keep reading on this subject because this does not clear up the argument for me. I am stuck on the relevance of GDP per worker vs GDP per capita. Why does it matter? Yes there are two ratios, but the GDP figure remains the same between the two ratios.

I tend to agree with the PBO that GDP growth will benefit from improved labour productivity stemming from a) forced innovation in Canada as labour becomes relatively scarce and b) importing of labour-intensive goods.

GDP per capita will tend to increase if GDP per worker rises, but that will be offset in whole or in part by the number of workers per capita falling. So GDP per capita will not grow at the rate GDP per worker does. If you tie the indexation of benefits to GDP per worker, the cost is going to go up much faster. Per capita it might not go up much at all. Significant implications I think for affordability.

In any case, I still think the practise and expectation of most is indexation for inflation.

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