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If anything, zero growth in exports is a good idea because it protects against Dutch Disease.

An export-dominated economy is a bad thing.

"More" exports are nice when in previous months the value of exports has sharply declined. Any economic restructuring will at least temporarily lower living standards.

Darn our open economy anyways. If we were only obsessive savers--we're not--then, oh well, forget it..... here comes the roller coaster. Wheee!!!!!!

If there is only one country in the world, "exports" has no meaning. IMO, the IMF has forced countries to go into that path and a better way to grow is domestically. "G" always has the same sign as "X" when they occur in expressions together and it is better to increase G than increase X.

Stephen, seems to me the facination with export growth can be traced to an obsession with high employment. Higher AD coming from X doesn't directly increase domestic aggregate consumption and thus doesn't increase domestic living standards. However, higher incomes coming from exports will feed through to domestic demand for services and the like.

The point though is that higher AD leads to higher employment regardless the source and their is a distributional effect in play. Extracting commodities or providing services might employ unskilled labour that doesn't have the skills to work (productively) in the manufacturing sector. After all, the statement "workers' real buying power stagnated" implies that they didn't have a comparative advantage in producing manufactures relative to the external competition.

I'm not quite claiming this is actually the case (I don't really know), only that some might believe it to be the case. China makes a similar claim about their export sector, I don't actually believe the argument in the case of China, I think for them it's about rents for the ruling class but western China defenders do reasonably make this sort of argument. (What makes me think the argument silly about China is the implicit assumption that there is no way to employ unskilled Chinese in producing services to be consumed by other Chinese, there is less external competition in domestic services.)

In this context, the idea that "Canada will need a thriving export industry to maintain stronger growth rates" seems rather odd.

Agreed. But what if you change the focus, to, say, Southwestern Ontario?

Overall I agree with your analysis - but there are important distributional effects that need to be considered. All I keep thinking about is the man with a foot in a bucket of ice water and the other foot in a bucket of boiling water...

Just to be clear the China analogy is meant to be taken loosely. In China the (silly) claim is something like: "We must employ people in the export sector because we just can't employ them to produce for domestic consumption".

In Canada the claim could (reasonably) be: High commodities prices drive the growth rate of wages for unskilled labour higher than it would be in the manufacturing sector. Thus high commodities prices might be necessary "to maintain stronger growth rates", emphasis on "strong".

Mike (and others): Certainly there is an implicit assumption that workers can move from one sector to the other, and from one region to the other. These transitions may not be instantaneous or costless, but they do happen. And given the usual churn in the labour market (10%-15% of workers change jobs in a given year), they can happen faster than you might think.

the point is not that they can move, it's a matter of where is their marginal product higher. Double the price of a comodity and you double the marginal product of the worker extracting it, this then drives up the wages of all unskilled labour, (assuming extracting the commodity is an unskilled job).

Mike (and others): Certainly there is an implicit assumption that workers can move from one sector to the other, and from one region to the other. These transitions may not be instantaneous or costless, but they do happen. And given the usual churn in the labour market (10%-15% of workers change jobs in a given year), they can happen faster than you might think.

Agreed. For instance, there was a job fair in Windsor, ON a couple years ago (2007?) where there were more employers from Sask and Alberta than there were from Ontario.

I think you're giving Carmichael too much credit. I actually clipped this paragraph from my paper when I saw it on Wednesday morning:

"Right now, Canada's recovery is being almost entirely fuelled by consumers, raising questions about how long a relatively small population of 33 million people can prop up a $1.3-trillion economy."

This is just a weird, weird thing to say -- unless you're someone who simply fails to realize that consumption is the flip side of production, exports the flip side of imports, etc.

Joseph: "This is just a weird, weird thing to say -- unless you're someone who simply fails to realize that consumption is the flip side of production,..."

Yep. How can people who produce and sell $1.3 trillion worth of goods and services possibly have the income needed to afford to buy $1.3 trillion worth of goods and services?

But I'm not sure that all economists understand this point either, unfortunately.

Though it might be possible to re-state the views of those who worry about net exports, in a way that might make a bit more sense. Net exports are the flip side of national savings minus investment. If there really is a global savings glut, then countries that have investment higher than national savings are, in a sense, doing "more than their fair share" of spending.

Very intriguing post for us Japanese, too. Here is my application of this post's analysis to Japan:

In the early 1990's, commodity prices fell, and we were able to get the imports we wanted with fewer productive resources allocated to the export sector. Workers were able to produce more for domestic consumption.
Unfortunately, we didn't have enough domestic consumption to match that redundant supply power, and slid into liquidity trap.

In 2002, commodity prices rose, and the only way for us to obtain the imports we wanted was to shift workers to the manufacturing sector, and to increase the value-added of exports. Yes, our terms of trade were clearly worse off, but that shift seemed to help us to get out of liquidity trap -- until Lehman shock arrived.

Labour market churn is good but momentarily painful. Perhaps that's why so many Canadians devote massive political resources to minimizing churn.

Recessions can be viewed as larger than usual labour market churning events.

Curious how many pundits shrug off a high valued currency because it allows businesses to update machinery and equipment. Clearly the M&E capital in this story is being imported, not bought from domestic sources. The enhanced productivity should ideally improve market penetration in both domestic and foreign markets. But I suspect that the pundits have in mind performance in foreign markets.

An export-dominated economy is a bad thing.

Germany is another good example.

This just shows that current conventional thinking commonly inter-changes national economies with individual firms. Individual firms do not consume their own production, they have to sell to earn income. National economies on the other hand can grow simply by having their domestic participants produce more and trade more with one another.

We need to go beyond looking at trade as Canada Inc. vs China Inc vs Japan Inc. There can still be growth in more production even if more of it is consumed locally. The real problem only starts if you are importing more (buying from outside) than you are exporting (selling to outside).

This just shows that current conventional thinking commonly inter-changes national economies with individual firms.

That's a great point. Whenever the advantages of free trade are being discussed in the media, they almost always talk about export opportunities - which is the perspective of an individual company. But the real benefits are the new opportunities for importing.

Stephen and Nick:

This is unrelated, but the BOC's latest financial system review seems to highlight household debt as a significant problem. Would you agree? In previous posts you were skeptical about this.

Matthew: I will have to take a look. I am skeptical about aggregate debt. The distribution of debt, though, is another matter. Last time I looked, the BoC analysis was v. good, because it looked at distribution.

Matthew, here is how I like to look at it.

(S-I) of the rich [I think there is a way to get both domestic and foreign in there] equals G-T minus (S-I) of the lower and middle class.

When the lower and middle class stopped going into currency denominated debt to the rich and some even tried to default, the rich got their gov'ts to go into currency denominated debt for them and tried to stop the defaults too.

Imports are benefits: We engage in international trade to get things more cheaply than it would cost to make it ourselves.

Sounds like economistspeak (or something greenspan would say) for we like to exploit cheap labor. It also sounds to me that a supply-constrained economy is also being assumed.

Exports are costs: We send exports to foreigners so that they will give us the imports we want.

What happens if the foreigners don't want or need the exports or the exporting country does not get high enough prices or quantities for its exports? Rev up the currency denominated debt machine? Sell other financial assets? Start lowering wages?

Will Australia and Canada be a little different than the USA (except maybe with food exports), the UK, and Japan?

More than fifteen years ago, Krugman wrote:
"One of the most popular, enduring misconceptions of practical men is that countries are in competition with each other in the same way that companies in the same business are in competition. Ricardo already knew better in 1817. An introductory economics course should drive home to students the point that international trade is not about competition, it is about mutually beneficial exchange. Even more fundamentally, we should be able to teach students that imports, not exports, are the purpose of trade. That is, what a country gains from trade is the ability to import things it wants. Exports are not an objective in and of themselves: the need to export is a burden that a country must bear because its import suppliers are crass enough to demand payment."
(David Henderson fully endorses this essay. )

It seems that old misconceptions never die.

Nick's post said: "Matthew: I will have to take a look. I am skeptical about aggregate debt. The distribution of debt, though, is another matter. Last time I looked, the BoC analysis was v. good, because it looked at distribution."

Should people be skeptical about high aggregate currency denominated debt levels when price inflation is low?

Does that usually mean some entity is suffering negative "real earnings" growth somewhere (meaning the distribution of currency denominated debt is skewed somewhere also)?

Canada really has two economies - an industrial core in Southern Ontario and Quebec, and a resource-based periphery in the rest of the country. When commodity prices are high (such as in the 1970s or 2000s), we have a strong dollar which hurts manufacturing in the core, but the periphery booms because of the improvement in the terms of trade. When commodity prices are low (as in the 1980s and 90s), we have a cheap dollar, manufacturing exports from the core expands, causing the economy of the core to boom, but the resource-dependant periphery suffers.

In both cases we have economic growth, but in a high-commodity-price world the growth is concentrated in the periphery and comes about from improved terms of trade, whereas in a cheap-commodity world, growth is concentrated in the core and comes from increased manufacturing exports because of a cheap Canadian dollar.

Thanks for the charts, very interesting to see what has contributed to growth over the last few decades.

"Right now, Canada's recovery is being almost entirely fuelled by consumers, raising questions about how long a relatively

small population of 33 million people can prop up a $1.3-trillion economy."

Is this all that weird? Canadians now have a debt to income ratio of 1.42, which is the highest it's ever been. Could some of

this 90% contribution to GDP (2001-2008) be as a result of taking on more debt to fuel consumption? What happens when more

debt can't be taken on and consumption drops? What will take up that very big place in our GDP? I don't know, I'm just

throwing out some questions because I think that the debt load of Canadians is rising,and they won't be able to consume as

they did in the past 8 years (also, Canadians took a big hit in their investments in the past year, so are also saving more

for their retirement)

I also don't get why making a value added product like furniture would be less beneficial for the economy than simply

exporting logs. Hopefully, you would receive more money from your export of furniture than you do for just exporting logs,

and this money would allow you to buy more imports. It's true than people would be taken from the service and goods area, but

as Mish says "we don't need any more nail salons, burger joints, and strip malls". I don't think it would be a big loss if

less people were in the service and good producing sector, and more were in the value added export sector.

Where do you see growth coming from if the consumer end of things drops off?

Jean: "Canadians now have a debt to income ratio of 1.42, which is the highest it's ever been. Could some of this 90% contribution to GDP (2001-2008) be as a result of taking on more debt to fuel consumption?"

No. It wasn't. This is an example of a fallacy of composition. It is true that any individual can go into debt to consume more. But it's not true that every individual can go into debt to consume more. Somebody must be lending them the money. And, in Canada's case, it wasn't foreigners. Canada was reducing/eliminating its net foreign debt over the same period.

For every financial liability there's a financial asset. Some Canadians were borrowing to spend. But other Canadians were saving to lend.

If, under one definition of "debt" Canadians have a 1.42 ratio of debt to income, Canadians also have a 1.42 ratio of assets to income, if we define "debt" and "assets" the same way.

Hi Nick, thanks for your response. I'm wondering though if people are really saving, or are banks leveraging themselves more? I understood that Canadian banks were leveraged about 20 to 1. I recently read an article from Sprott Asset Management where they say that Canadian banks are leveraged about 30 to 1. (http://www.sprott.com/Docs/MarketsataGlance/11_09%20Dont%20Bank%20on%20the%20Banks.pdf) I don't know which is the correct number, but let's say banks are leveraged 20 to 1 and gradually increase their leverage to 30 to 1. They are increasing their lending by 50%, but there are no savings backing up this lending. The bank is just taking more risk by increasing their leverage. So they've basically created money by leverage, and people are spending this money, but there is no corresponding increase in savings. Isn't this what caused the financial crisis in the U.S.? Too many bad loans, and banks were too heavily leveraged.

Hi Jean:

I don't know if the Sprott figures are accurate. But if they are, that means a shortage of bank capital, which is a very specific type of asset.

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